[Full-Process Modeling] discussion on the primitive Method -- A dialogue with wonder

2004-11-10 16:57:06 wonder
What kind of prototype are there?

16:58:08 qingrun
The practical prototype and demonstration prototype are mainly these two types.
Some other prototype concepts have also been derived, such as progressive prototype and abandonment prototype.

16:58:32 qingrun
This is my current opinion. I have never seen any detailed information about the prototype method.

2004-11-10 16:58:56 wonder
What I need is a strict definition

2004-11-10 16:59:03 wonder
Is a noun,

2004-11-10 16:59:32 wonder
In fact, the abandonment and progress are similar to the demonstration/practical statement above.

17:02:27 qingrun
Different, the results of practical prototypes are constantly evolving. If it is a step-by-step approach, rather than a step-by-step approach, it is a gradual process.
Similarly, if a demo prototype requires that each prototype must be abandoned and re-built, the obtained 9-hour discard prototype will be a progressive prototype.

2004-11-10 17:03:09 wonder
However, prototype is not necessarily intended for demonstration.

17:03:41 qingrun
However, some of them were developed before the system was developed to demonstrate functions. Therefore, they are called demonstration prototypes.

17:04:26 qingrun
If the prototype is quickly supplemented before system development is completed, that is, the prototype with some practical operation functions is the practical prototype.
Demonstration prototype has no function implementation, which is the difference between the two.
 

2004-11-10 17:04:58 wonder
I think there are two ways to solve this problem: decorable prototype and practical prototype.

2004-11-10 17:05:31 wonder
Sometimes it is hard to say that we should discard them all from the beginning. The demand and function of demonstration must also be a gradual process. If you want to understand it all at once, what else should you do.

2004-11-10 17:06:03 wonder
Therefore, the final standard should be to leave no prototype as the basis for development, rather than the method.

17:06:48 qingrun
No, the abandonment prototype is a prototype method that requires that all the previous content be discarded. Each time we make a thorough change to the previous time, it does not even contain any similar points. This method is more extreme, but it is very effective.

17:06:56 qingrun
It should be said that it is very effective in some occasions.

2004-11-10 17:07:22 wonder
There is still a discard type and a practical division.

2004-11-10 17:07:31 wonder
Instead of demonstration/practical division

17:07:48 qingrun
Demonstration/practical division I have already said: Demonstration prototype has no function implementation, which is the difference between the two.

17:08:14 qingrun
Demonstration prototype can only discard the practice. This practice does not exist in the practical prototype.

2004-11-10 17:08:19 wonder
I disagree,

17:08:35 qingrun
Not whether you agree or not. This is what everyone is doing.

2004-11-10 17:08:45 wonder
Even with the demo prototype, these demos can be used in the future UI. It is unreasonable to use functions as the Division principle.

2004-11-10 17:09:00 wonder
You will never admit that the UI is part of the work, right?

17:09:10 qingrun
Haha. I think you may need to take a detailed look at the definition of the prototype method.

17:09:30 qingrun
There is a reason for doing so. Such division and practice are not out of the box.

2004-11-10 17:09:47 wonder
Then, why is the Division so rational?

2004-11-10 17:10:07 wonder
You just need not write the prototype.

17:11:01 qingrun
The practical prototype will be directly exported to the end. Most of the content of the demo prototype is used to guide user needs. Therefore, there is no function implementation in the demo prototype.
(Do not confuse interfaces with function implementations. There is a difference between the two. The interface is used to facilitate user operation and use of functions, rather than implementing functions)

2004-11-10 17:11:52 wonder
No. What the capture requirement shows to the user must include the UI part.

2004-11-10 17:12:07 wonder
At least UI elements, not just operations and usage functions.

2004-11-10 17:12:30 wonder
These elements will be confirmed by the user almost without exception, and then serve as the basis for design.

17:12:33 qingrun
The emergence of prototype is a kind of advance implementation method proposed to reduce the demand changes brought about by the subsequent development process. This implementation method is not very complete, it only allows users to see the status after the system is completed in advance, so that users can put forward new functional requirements they have considered in advance.
At the same time, this will also help to evaluate the measurement of the entire system.

2004-11-10 17:13:29 wonder
In this regard, we should not follow the instructions in books.

17:13:45 qingrun
It's not like reading a book, so does my personal feeling.

17:14:01 qingrun
If you say that the UI is also a requirement, I will not deny it, but it is not a functional requirement.

2004-11-10 17:14:35 wonder
For example, if you draw several web pages, the user confirms. You discard it again, but the web page itself contains some features, such as support for mouse operations, support for shortcut keys, this is not a function?

2004-11-10 17:15:11 wonder
After the website is confirmed by the user, will you completely discard yourself and try again?

17:15:25 qingrun
They are all functions other than system functions, not the business functions of the system. You cannot say that in order to distinguish it from Microsoft's operating system, our new system does not use the mouse. This is different.

2004-11-10 17:15:34 wonder
There are Operation Sequence and interaction methods. Isn't this a function? These things are hard to be cut at once

2004-11-10 17:16:20 wonder
What is the interaction mode? For example, if you want to use the right-click pop-up menu, is this a functional requirement or interface requirement? Haha

17:16:26 qingrun
I still think that you should first get to know about it and then continue to discuss this question. How can this problem be solved?

2004-11-10 17:17:08 wonder
That's fine if I don't talk about the prototype. In actual work, we all do that. The last step is to abandon or continue.
 

17:17:13 qingrun
Right-click the pop-up menu suggestion. It is not a business requirement, but an additional requirement. If I cannot implement it, I can also tell the user to press a button to implement it, which is acceptable to the user. No?

2004-11-10 17:17:31 wonder
Therefore, this classification standard is incorrect for demonstration/practical use.

2004-11-10 17:17:47 wonder
You are wrong. What you just said is to divide by function, not by business needs or not.

17:18:02 qingrun
What is direct function ing?

2004-11-10 17:18:30 wonder
What is direct function ing? Haha. Define

17:18:47 qingrun
That is to say, where is the function obtained?

2004-11-10 17:19:06 wonder
It can also be imagined.

2004-11-10 17:19:11 wonder
This is not captured.

2004-11-10 17:19:27 wonder
I have no objection to the definition of most prototypes.

17:19:23 qingrun
In fact, imagination is also a kind of capture.

2004-11-10 17:19:33 wonder
However, I think your classification criteria are incorrect.

17:19:41 qingrun
Well. This is just my current opinion.

2004-11-10 17:19:50 wonder
So you have to expand it. All the concepts are associated, so I have nothing to say.

17:20:20 qingrun
It is not hard to expand. However, I think this is easier to control and clearly stated in terms of concept.

17:20:40 qingrun
The same is true for their associations. No one has ever used a practical prototype to discard the method.

2004-11-10 17:21:05 wonder
I think it should be abandoned/practical, and then under the method, It should be gradual, or a one-time reconstruction, demonstration in terms of functions, or verification of ideas.

2004-11-10 17:21:35 wonder
A demo is a user-oriented mode and cannot be equivalent to a practical one. The problem is different.

17:22:03 qingrun
No, I don't think so.
In my opinion, practical/demo is a way to divide from the background to the foreground, and abandon is just a way to deal with it.

2004-11-10 17:22:49 wonder
No. If I only want to verify my ideas, I will not present them to others at all, and this demonstration will not exist. It doesn't matter either the background or the front-end.

2004-11-10 17:23:10 wonder
If you are a project, you can show it to users. Of course, there are stages. Therefore, it is conditional.

2004-11-10 17:23:24 wonder
One angle is the customer's, and the other is the developer's choice.

17:23:25 qingrun
You are playing. It is neither practical nor necessary. Therefore, it is unnecessary to abandon or not discard.

2004-11-10 17:23:32 wonder
However, you can describe them separately.

17:23:37 qingrun
The prototype is used to show it to others. Otherwise, it is also called a prototype.

2004-11-10 17:23:58 wonder
Qingrun 17:23:24
You are playing. It is neither practical nor necessary. Therefore, it is unnecessary to abandon or not discard.

This situation certainly exists during product creation.

2004-11-10 17:24:21 wonder
Then you write something to verify your own ideas and ideas. What is this not called prototype?

17:24:18 qingrun
For example, if you draw a picture in the document, it is also a prototype, that is, a demo prototype. I think.

17:24:26 qingrun
Yes.

2004-11-10 17:24:40 wonder
I don't think anyone understands things and shows it to themselves.

17:24:38 qingrun
Because it does not have any function implementation.

17:24:56 qingrun
What are you talking about?

2004-11-10 17:25:03 wonder
I can also implement the function, and then verify that this is feasible.

2004-11-10 17:25:16 wonder
However, it overturned implementation in other ways. Right?

17:25:23 qingrun
That's the next thing. When the function is implemented, you are not doing a prototype, but developing it.

2004-11-10 17:25:31 wonder
Or follow the optimization method.

17:25:45 qingrun
Yes. This option can be used at any stage.

2004-11-10 17:25:51 wonder
Oh, but I did discard this version. What is your name?

17:26:08 qingrun
An error occurred while writing. Because you are not making a prototype.

2004-11-10 17:26:40 wonder
Haha, what if the program is correct? What is version 1.0? Haha

17:26:52 qingrun
Yes. If you don't have a major error, you must develop it.

2004-11-10 17:27:27 wonder
No. For example, if you use this metric, You have to discard a lot of interfaces, so you will completely discard it?

17:27:30 qingrun
You have to re-design it when you need to make a big adjustment. However, the previous one is also not a prototype. Because you did not follow the prototype method.

2004-11-10 17:27:40 wonder
This is just one of the choices, right?

2004-11-10 17:28:01 wonder
Or are you planning to continue from the very beginning? If you can't continue, it's called abandoning the prototype, not a failed development version?

2004-11-10 17:28:03 wonder
Haha.

17:28:29 qingrun
This does not mean that we should abandon it completely. In the measurement, I cut down an interface, namely the Investment Estimation interface. This is a local operation, not a discard operation. In fact, I use the progressive method in the interface primitive method.

2004-11-10 17:28:53 wonder
If you draw a bunch of Interfaces Based on the demo prototype, but you don't know whether the requirements are actually expressed, then you can discard them and continue painting?

2004-11-10 17:29:13 wonder
Yes, you are using a progressive method, but I put this on the method.

2004-11-10 17:29:30 wonder
But you do not know whether it is development, demonstration, or practical?

17:29:29 qingrun
If we abandon the entire process, we will discard the ideas of the law. Every time we think about it all new, the next development will never depend on the results of the previous one.

2004-11-10 17:29:40 wonder
Unless you make a decision at the beginning.

17:29:50 qingrun
No, I know. If the prototype is available, I will enter the development stage. If the prototype is unavailable, I must adjust it.

2004-11-10 17:30:03 wonder
The next development is definitely not dependent on the previous results. What is the significance of the previous development.

2004-11-10 17:30:42 wonder
The problem is that you cannot guarantee that your ideas are feasible. In the prototype phase, you cannot estimate that you will not abandon it after development.

2004-11-10 17:30:53 wonder
This is a prediction problem.

2004-11-10 17:31:08 wonder
It is not determined by the concept of books.

17:31:08 qingrun
However, the previous sections have already explained a lot of unoperational directions. However, I have never used the discard method, and it may not be very correct.

2004-11-10 17:31:46 wonder
I think there is a premise for the original method.

17:32:23 qingrun
In my opinion, the discard method should be an approach when you have no idea about the system and need to implement it quickly. Of course, it seems that the requirements on the customer side will also be a little high.

2004-11-10 17:32:40 wonder
Otherwise, all of them will be developed. The discarded version is called a failed or abandoned version, and the successful version is called a practical version.
If it is not intended for customers or demonstrated, there will be no prototype.

2004-11-10 17:33:18 wonder
The prototype can only be a demonstration prototype in reality.
Once any functional code is written, it is called a development version. Haha.

17:33:28 qingrun
No. This definition is incorrect.

2004-11-10 17:33:49 wonder
Then how do you define the practical prototype and the boundaries between the development version?

2004-11-10 17:34:21 wonder
These two concepts are mixed up. Or when is the prototype, and when is the development version?

17:34:20 qingrun
The prototype usually does not take anything into consideration. It only requires fast speed and allows users to see it. However, this may also be related to weak software engineering management capabilities in China, as long as the code is written in China, it is regarded as valid, whether or not it complies with the specifications or is available in the future. Therefore, it is indeed confusing in China.

2004-11-10 17:35:07 wonder
In the prototype practice, we usually do not consider anything. It only requires fast speed and allows users to see it,
That is not a scientific method. If this is a standard. Haha. You can just cheat it.

17:35:37 qingrun
This is an effective way to obtain the demand, not to cheat. It is not directly related to fraud in China.

2004-11-10 17:35:46 wonder
The method must be repeatable and verifiable. This is called a method. Otherwise, it would be a problem if you lie to the past for the next time.

2004-11-10 17:36:03 wonder
That's not to mention the domestic situation.

2004-11-10 17:36:15 wonder
The problem is:
 

17:36:10 qingrun
People who can make prototypes are usually relatively high-level people or people with relatively old experience. In China, they dare to trick people into anything.

2004-11-10 17:36:16 wonder
Then how do you define the practical prototype and the boundaries between the development version?
 

2004-11-10 17:37:10 wonder
For example, we have no customers for measurement. As you said earlier, you cannot be called a progressive prototype. You can only be called a validation version or a conceptual development version,

17:37:10 qingrun
The development version is implemented according to the development process specified by the company. A Practical prototype is a version that is researched at the user's site or implemented to quickly obtain the user's needs.

2004-11-10 17:37:23 wonder
Because you didn't show it to that person either, right.

2004-11-10 17:38:11 wonder
Oh, that's even worse.
Now we are working on development, but it is not a development version.

2004-11-10 17:38:27 wonder
Because there is no agreement on the development process prescribed by the company... :)

17:38:45 qingrun
Yes, I did not show it to the customer. However, because I have experience working at the customer side, I think that, to some extent, I can come to the customer side for review.

2004-11-10 17:38:56 wonder
I don't think they actually follow this definition.

2004-11-10 17:40:26 wonder
Instead, only the demo prototype is started,
If it is not converted to the development and resource input phase, it is regarded as a prototype. But I don't know whether it is a demonstration or practical.
Once resources are invested in the development phase, if the prototype is applied, the previous prototype becomes a practical prototype, and the first development version is generated immediately. Otherwise, the prototype is discarded, come back later.
 

17:40:25 qingrun
I don't think this is a flaw.

2004-11-10 17:41:04 wonder
However, the original method is not used in this way. Instead, it is being developed from the beginning.

17:41:46 qingrun
Yes. In fact, I originally wanted to make a prototype, but later I could not do the design, and it became like this.

17:41:55 qingrun
That is, from prototype to product.

2004-11-10 17:42:32 wonder
Oh, that's the same.

17:42:38 qingrun
Haha.

2004-11-10 17:42:47 wonder
Therefore, the premise of the prototype method is the customer's participation. Without the customer's participation, it is not a prototype.

2004-11-10 17:42:56 wonder
It is development. Haha

17:43:16 qingrun
In fact, it is not none, but changes according to the situation.

2004-11-10 17:43:36 wonder
In fact, the prototype is also changing.

17:43:58 qingrun
Yes, I agree that all changes remain unchanged.

2004-11-10 17:44:13 wonder
In addition, the argument is also different. It may be called a prototype in the business/bidding personnel. Without this division, it doesn't matter if the prototype is no longer prototype.

17:44:18 qingrun
Everything is changing according to the external environment and the internal environment and conditions.

2004-11-10 17:44:28 wonder
I'm trying to determine the software version status. Do you think this score is appropriate.
Concept, prototype, development version, stable version, internal test version, public test version, release version, and future research version

2004-11-10 17:45:48 wonder
Therefore, the concept of progressive prototype derived from them can be ignored. This is useless for practical purposes, but it is just a human division method. In fact, it is better to divide it into the demo prototype stage (only capture requirements) and then directly go to the development version. This is more appropriate. It's what I wrote above.

17:45:53 qingrun
Suitable. There should be no omissions.

2004-11-10 17:46:53 wonder
If the development fails, it is the version 0. X that fails, not the prototype I abandoned. Haha. In fact, the function implementation has been done.
Whether it is a prototype or a failed version is discarded is a man-made statement.

17:47:26 qingrun
Well, there is a difference, but we will not discuss it here. It seems that I have already made it clear?

2004-11-10 17:48:19 wonder
Yes. I think it can be clearly stated only in the development environment.

17:48:29 qingrun
Oh, that's the same. Let's go out for dinner.

2004-11-10 17:48:47 wonder
=

17:48:50 qingrun
Okay.

2004-11-10 17:49:04 wonder
10 min

17:49:05 qingrun
OK

2004-11-10 17:52:15 wonder
However, this can still be divided as you do. Because
Concept, demonstration prototype, practical prototype, development version, stable version, beta version, Public Beta version, release version, and future research version
Such writing can cover the subsequent situations, but not vice versa.

2004-11-10 17:52:46 wonder
If necessary,
Can directly, concept-practical prototype,
Or conception-development version.

17:53:46 qingrun
It does not need to be so complex. It is enough for demonstration prototype and practical prototype.

17:53:55 qingrun
Both are parallel.

2004-11-10 17:54:22 wonder
I still want to keep it. Otherwise, I cannot define it if I do not know the previous stage.

2004-11-10 17:54:39 wonder
For example, after the prototype is defined, it is decided not to develop.

17:54:34 qingrun
Then we can make a parallel operation.

2004-11-10 17:55:20 wonder
In this case, it cannot be called a practical prototype.

17:55:31 qingrun
It is called a prototype.

17:55:56 qingrun
The above definition is the most suitable. You do not need to add a category.

2004-11-10 17:56:07 wonder
The problem is that this model is affected by external factors and is unknown during the work. So it is clear to separate future tags, right?

2004-11-10 17:56:25 wonder
That's fine.

17:56:21 qingrun
Isn't it enough to mark the prototype?

17:56:25 qingrun
Yes.

2004-11-10 17:57:12 wonder
Well, it is actually divided by time. It depends on how detailed the division is.

17:57:24 qingrun
Well.

2004-11-10 17:58:15 wonder
[Image]

2004-11-10 17:58:30 wonder
However, at the end of the process, it is actually a hierarchical definition .. For example, the version status ..

17:58:39 qingrun
Oh.

17:58:54 qingrun
Is this the interface on bugzero?

2004-11-10 17:59:06 wonder
Let's go.

17:59:05 qingrun
Okay.